A Canadian Soccer Revolution

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 16 octobre 2007 15:25

CrazyKeeper a écrit :
3kuyt a écrit :
CrazyKeeper a écrit : The TV revenues will increase if the number of teams increase, that shouldn't be a problem. Also, maybe MTL will sign it's own agreement with Radio-Canada/RDS and the same could happen with Vancouver with TSN for example.
Maybe MTL may sign a contract with RDS, but why would TSN get an exclusive contract with Vancouver? Can Radio-Canada afford to pay television rights for the MLS? More teams in Canada does not necessariy mean more games televised, especially if they are scheduled on the same day.

TFC has a monopoly in Canadian division 1 soccer until 2010 and I don't see them giving up that priviledge
It's call negotiation. So, MTL as a french city should be able to negotiate something with Radio-Canada and maybe RDS and have most of their games televised. The same apply for Vancouver and some locals network or even TSN (it's just a suggestion).

TFC have already their own broadcasting deal, so if MTL enters the MLS tomorrow with their own TV deal with RDS (an example) it will have no impact on the TFC TV deal. Do you understand that? So, that's not a reason for TFC to keep the exclusivity deal alive.

Fair enough, but Im still not convinced that the club would let go a monopoly. I also don't think its fair that via this veto the club has power to influence the development of professional soccer in Canada.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 16 octobre 2007 15:36

It's a question of interests, if it's in their interest they will let it go, if it doesn't change anything for them they will let it go but if they see some kind of danger from another team (which I don't see happening) they will upheld it.

I would think that if there's a serious bid from one of MTL or Vancouver before 2010, this aspect will be negotiate between the parties.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 16 octobre 2007 15:49

CrazyKeeper a écrit :It's a question of interests, if it's in their interest they will let it go, if it doesn't change anything for them they will let it go but if they see some kind of danger from another team (which I don't see happening) they will upheld it.

I would think that if there's a serious bid from one of MTL or Vancouver before 2010, this aspect will be negotiate between the parties.

If its not in their interest they may not let it go. Its not the first time that the MLS give regional priviledges to a club, but a regional priveledge over an entire country is pushing it.

Clubs in Montreal or Vancouver would not effect their fan base, i can hardly see people travelling from Montreal or Vancouver to support their club.

Ultimatly its a question of power and no club should be able to determine the futur of other clubs located in other cities, especially when they are miles appart. The CSA technically has the power to alter that rule, but in reality the USSF controls the MLS.

penz · Message par **penz** » 16 octobre 2007 15:50

CrazyKeeper a écrit :I would think that if there's a serious bid from one of MTL or Vancouver before 2010, this aspect will be negotiate between the parties.

In that aspect, it's really hard for a team to form an alliance with other clubs and later eventually block their entry in the MLS for some exclusivity deal.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one or the other Canadian team enter the MLS in 2009. One with a stadium, preferably.

Napule · Message par **Napule** » 16 octobre 2007 19:33

does USSF stand for united states soccer federation? does it also ownthe USL?

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 16 octobre 2007 23:06

napule a écrit :does USSF stand for united states soccer federation? does it also ownthe USL?

The USSF does stand for united states soccer federation. Its not a question of ownership, but more a question of governing body. The USSF controls everything that is related to soccer in America. The development of the MLS was closely tied to the USSF. Considering that the USl is the divison 2 soccer league in north AMerica and most teams in the usl are based in the U.S. can we can easily assume that the USSF has a considerable amount of influence over the USL.

Napule · Message par **Napule** » 16 octobre 2007 23:57

therefore, the USSF decides which USL teams get promoted in the MLS based on the USL teams credentials until this day. my question is why does seattle earn MLS distinction when were so much closer than them in terms of soccer specific stadium norms. my other question is that lets say the impact does make the jump in the MLS, what does that mean for joey saputo as for the influence hes had for the club so far? will he still be in charge as president of the team? does the club fall intirely in the hands of the MLS? does saputo loose control over the team in favor of the MLS governing body,administation, etc?

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 17 octobre 2007 10:32

napule a écrit :therefore, the USSF decides which USL teams get promoted in the MLS based on the USL teams credentials until this day. my question is why does seattle earn MLS distinction when were so much closer than them in terms of soccer specific stadium norms. my other question is that lets say the impact does make the jump in the MLS, what does that mean for joey saputo as for the influence hes had for the club so far? will he still be in charge as president of the team? does the club fall intirely in the hands of the MLS? does saputo loose control over the team in favor of the MLS governing body,administation, etc?

The USSF won't decide which USL franchises get promotted. The MLS will.

If Montreal joins the MLS and Saputo remains involved, he would become what is called an operator/investor. As an operator/investor, Saputo gets to choose his managing and coaching staff. He probably also controls decisions related to the stadium, since he will own the stadium. Meanwhile, the league will own all the players contracts and negotiate them.

Napule · Message par **Napule** » 20 octobre 2007 20:45

yur saying that the impact would be owned by the MLS. now to yur knowledge would that be an advantage or not for saputo as the actual president?

Cashcleaner · Message par **Cashcleaner** » 30 octobre 2007 1:30

Okay, I think my first post came off the wrong way.

Mpenza, I can't stress this enough - I really, REALLY want Montreal (and Vancouver) in the MLS along with Toronto. You don't have to tell me about how long you guys have been supporting the Impact. You're preaching to the choir when it comes to the atmosphere and passion you're bringing to the USL. There's no need to convince me that you've got the goods when it comes to showing your support for your team.

Simply put - Could you imagine how we could transform Major League Soccer with 3 Canadian clubs? Right now, it's almost a joke the way teams in places like Columbus or Kansas City operate. No word of a lie: I'd rather see a place like Montreal or Vancouver get a team and have fans that know how to support them, as opposed to some US club with a stadium located 10 miles outside of it's city and less than 10,000 people buying season tickets.

I don't think for a second that other Canadian clubs are going to need Toronto to stimulate interest. Like many have mentioned on the thread, the Impact and Whitecaps have been going strong for years now with little competition from the Lynx.

I apologize if my initial posts came off as a little pompous, though if it is a precursor to a professional rivalry, I'll take all the credit!

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 30 octobre 2007 9:27

You've mentionned that both Vancouver and Montreal were doing better in the USL then Toronto. If we base ourselves on that, the first MLS franchise should not have been appointed to Toronto, but it was.

Were you aware that our privately financed Saputo Stadium was gonna be the home of the canadian national team, until the creation of the TFC, which lead to the publicly financed BMO field, which then became the home of the national team.

I can understand why your excited about whats going on in Toronto, but thats having both positive and negative repercussions on us. Unfortunitly, at this time the negative is outweighing the positive.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 30 octobre 2007 9:38

3kuyt a écrit :You've mentionned that both Vancouver and Montreal were doing better in the USL then Toronto. If we base ourselves on that, the first MLS franchise should not have been appointed to Toronto, but it was.

Were you aware that our privately financed Saputo Stadium was gonna be the home of the canadian national team, until the creation of the TFC, which lead to the publicly financed BMO field, which then became the home of the national team.

I can understand why your excited about whats going on in Toronto, but thats having both positive and negative repercussions on us. Unfortunitly, at this time the negative is outweighing the positive.

Ok, where did you read that Saputo Stadium was going to be the home of Canada NT? I've never read or heard about that....but it was said when the Stadium announcement was made that our National teams could play in it, there's a big difference. Also, the CSA should call a stadium "the home of Canada NT", not Saputo.....and for that matter since the 90's, Commonwealth in Edmonton would be the "Home" of the MNT according to many fans.

Let's not forget that discussions about a SSS in Toronto have been ongoing for years now, I'm pretty sure all that talk in Toronto was going on before the first Saputo stadium announcement.

So please 3Kuyt, get your facts straight! Your first post in this topic included a big lie about MTL not getting a semi-final game and now this...

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 30 octobre 2007 9:56

CrazyKeeper a écrit :
3kuyt a écrit :You've mentionned that both Vancouver and Montreal were doing better in the USL then Toronto. If we base ourselves on that, the first MLS franchise should not have been appointed to Toronto, but it was.

Were you aware that our privately financed Saputo Stadium was gonna be the home of the canadian national team, until the creation of the TFC, which lead to the publicly financed BMO field, which then became the home of the national team.

I can understand why your excited about whats going on in Toronto, but thats having both positive and negative repercussions on us. Unfortunitly, at this time the negative is outweighing the positive.
Ok, where did you read that Saputo Stadium was going to be the home of Canada NT? I've never read or heard about that....but it was said when the Stadium announcement was made that our National teams could play in it, there's a big difference. Also, the CSA should call a stadium "the home of Canada NT", not Saputo.....and for that matter since the 90's, Commonwealth in Edmonton would be the "Home" of the MNT according to many fans.

Let's not forget that discussions about a SSS in Toronto have been ongoing for years now, I'm pretty sure all that talk in Toronto was going on before the first Saputo stadium announcement.

So please 3Kuyt, get your facts straight!

Listen buddy, my facts are straight. The CSA had been looking for several years for a SSS to be the home of the national team. Saputo officially unveiled plans for his stadium before Toronto had been awarded a MLS franchise. At that point in time Saputo Stadium WAS THE PROJECTED HOME of the national team. Shortly after the MLS awarded a franchise to Toronto, which resulted in the creation of BMO field and that stadium wuld have never been built for the Lynx, its a direct consequence of obtaining an MLS franchise. Poor little Toronto was unable to privately finance their stadium, so they had to knock at the door of the goverment for money. Since the TFC required private funds to build the stadium, it sold the idea to the government by telling them it could be the home of the national team, thus the publics money would not entirely be spent for the interest of a private bussiness.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 30 octobre 2007 10:08

3kuyt a écrit :
CrazyKeeper a écrit :
3kuyt a écrit :You've mentionned that both Vancouver and Montreal were doing better in the USL then Toronto. If we base ourselves on that, the first MLS franchise should not have been appointed to Toronto, but it was.

Were you aware that our privately financed Saputo Stadium was gonna be the home of the canadian national team, until the creation of the TFC, which lead to the publicly financed BMO field, which then became the home of the national team.

I can understand why your excited about whats going on in Toronto, but thats having both positive and negative repercussions on us. Unfortunitly, at this time the negative is outweighing the positive.
Ok, where did you read that Saputo Stadium was going to be the home of Canada NT? I've never read or heard about that....but it was said when the Stadium announcement was made that our National teams could play in it, there's a big difference. Also, the CSA should call a stadium "the home of Canada NT", not Saputo.....and for that matter since the 90's, Commonwealth in Edmonton would be the "Home" of the MNT according to many fans.

Let's not forget that discussions about a SSS in Toronto have been ongoing for years now, I'm pretty sure all that talk in Toronto was going on before the first Saputo stadium announcement.

So please 3Kuyt, get your facts straight!
Listen buddy, my facts are straight. The CSA had been looking for several years for a SSS to be the home of the national team. Saputo officially unveiled plans for his stadium before Toronto had been awarded a MLS franchise. At that point in time Saputo Stadium WAS THE PROJECTED HOME of the national team. Shortly after the MLS awarded a franchise to Toronto, which resulted in the creation of BMO field and that stadium wuld have never been built for the Lynx, its a direct consequence of obtaining an MLS franchise. Poor little Toronto was unable to privately finance their stadium, so they had to knock at the door of the goverment for money. Since the TFC required private funds to build the stadium, it sold the idea to the government by telling them it could be the home of the national team, thus the publics money would not entirely be spent for the interest of a private bussiness.

Ok, so you're saying the CSA while looking at finding partners to build a stadium in Toronto since 2000/2001 were also looking at Saputo Stadium as the "Home of our NT"? That's complete BS.

I'm pretty sure the CSA is happy to have as many SSS in Canada, but Montreal as the home of our NT is pure crap and it was never mentionned anywhere. This is pure speculation on your part. I would like to read about it, a mention form someone at the CSA or Saputo, who did say his stadium could host MNT games (and I personnally hope it does next year for at least one game).

I know the anti-Toronto feelings are quite high on this forum but please don't tell me your facts are straight when you clearly are basing them on your own speculation....

Look at this link where you have an article dating from may 2003 where the CSA is exploring the idea of a partnership with the Argo's to build a stadium in Toronto....
http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/to ... ms=stadium

penz · Message par **penz** » 30 octobre 2007 10:24

Cashcleaner a écrit :I apologize if my initial posts came off as a little pompous, though if it is a precursor to a professional rivalry, I'll take all the credit!

Oh don't worry, the rivalry existed long before you came here to slap your MLS expertise in our faces.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 30 octobre 2007 13:26

CrazyKeeper a écrit :Isn't the exclusivity clause in a contract between MLS and MLSE??? It's legally impossible for the CSA to contract such a clause.

"Mais surtout, la nouvelle organisation torontoise aurait obtenu une exclusivité sur le territoire canadien auprès de l'association canadienne."

http://www.rds.ca/impact/chroniques/190727.html

How about you get your facts straight.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 30 octobre 2007 14:21

3kuyt a écrit :
CrazyKeeper a écrit :Isn't the exclusivity clause in a contract between MLS and MLSE??? It's legally impossible for the CSA to contract such a clause.
"Mais surtout, la nouvelle organisation torontoise aurait obtenu une exclusivité sur le territoire canadien auprès de l'association canadienne."

http://www.rds.ca/impact/chroniques/190727.html

How about you get your facts straight.

Well, first note the use of the word "aurait". Second it's still legally impossible to have that kind of agreement between the CSA and TFC because it's the MLS who decides who gets a team, not the CSA. Third it's RDS and it wouldn't be the first time a misunderstand occured in a soccer article over there.

BTW, I've never denied the existence of such a clause, the only thing I'm saying is that I think it's illegal to contract it, and that's why I doubt it does exist. If it really exist (a clause between CSA and TFC) Saputo or Kerfoot would have every rights to enter legal procedures to have it lift off.

It's all right if you are unable to back up your claims. I consider that you didn't know what you were talking about and made false statements to boost your point...

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 30 octobre 2007 14:41

CrazyKeeper a écrit :It's all right if you are unable to back up your claims. I consider that you didn't know what you were talking about and made false statements to boost your point...

Your right Im a pathological liar, meanwhile you know all the truths about the development of soccer.

penz · Message par **penz** » 30 octobre 2007 14:47

You're wasting your time, scouser.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 30 octobre 2007 14:47

3kuyt a écrit :
CrazyKeeper a écrit :It's all right if you are unable to back up your claims. I consider that you didn't know what you were talking about and made false statements to boost your point...
Your right Im a pathological liar, meanwhile you know all the truths about the development of soccer.

I didn't say that and you know it. I just found your claims about Saputo Stadium being the home of our NT to be pure speculation. I've never heard it from anyone. It just doesn't help your credibility when you need to make up facts when you discuss with someone.

As for me knowing it all, I've never made claims ressembling to that in this thread and only confronted some posters with their affirmations, is that wrong to ask you some proofs or should we just let you say whatever you want?

penz · Message par **penz** » 30 octobre 2007 14:55

The thing is, when we bring proofs (like kuyt just did about that MLS-MLSE-CSA deal), you still say it's not good enough.

So there's only one thing left to do and that is say the following, whenever you go on a rampage : Yes, you're right CK. That's the only thing that's going to shut you up.

So hey... you're right CK. Absolutely right. You nailed it. You put your finger on it. Right on. Way to go.

CrazyKeeper · Message par **CrazyKeeper** » 30 octobre 2007 15:01

Mpenza a écrit :The thing is, when we bring proofs (like kuyt just did about that MLS-MLSE-CSA deal), you still say it's not good enough.

So there's only one thing left to do and that is say the following, whenever you go on a rampage : Yes, you're right CK. That's the only thing that's going to shut you up.

So hey... you're right CK. Absolutely right. You nailed it. You put your finger on it. Right on. Way to go.

The thing is that I've never presented that as a fact. Only questionned the legality of such a deal (and doubted it's existence if it's involved the CSA) since my experience would led me to believe that it isn't correct. There's a difference. I'm not in the know and you aren't so who really knows what's in it?

And this all started because I wanted to find out where Kuyt got that idea of the MNT House....

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 30 octobre 2007 15:06

CrazyKeeper a écrit :As for me knowing it all, I've never made claims ressembling to that in this thread and only confronted some posters with their affirmations, is that wrong to ask you some proofs or should we just let you say whatever you want?

It's not because you have no eard about this, that it is not true or that Im making stuff up. Your automatically saying that im lieing since your unaware of this, therefore you suggesting that you know all truths.

I don't have the sources with me, since the articles were written in fall of 2005, as soon as I have the time to look for them, you'll have them.

3kuyt · Message par **3kuyt** » 30 octobre 2007 15:37

Heres an article that answer a few of your questions

http://www.canada.com/montreal/sports/t ... f1223d846e 4

"I'm not saying we're going to have a smaller stadium because of the MLS in Toronto," Saputo said. "It's because the CSA has an exclusive agreement with the people who are going to run the Toronto stadium that all international events are going to go to Toronto. So if I'm building my stadium on the eventuality of bringing in the national team or having a national program, that's what I have to reconsider."

This is the second article that clearly states that the TFC received an exclusivity clause from the CSA.

MegasAlexandros · Message par **MegasAlexandros** » 30 octobre 2007 16:28

3kuyt a écrit :Heres an article that answer a few of your questions

http://www.canada.com/montreal/sports/t ... f1223d846e 4

"I'm not saying we're going to have a smaller stadium because of the MLS in Toronto," Saputo said. "It's because the CSA has an exclusive agreement with the people who are going to run the Toronto stadium that all international events are going to go to Toronto. So if I'm building my stadium on the eventuality of bringing in the national team or having a national program, that's what I have to reconsider."

This is the second article that clearly states that the TFC received an exclusivity clause from the CSA.

That exerpt from the article refers to an exclusive agreement between the CSA and MLSE ("the people who are going to run the Toronto stadium") for all "international events"... it has nothing to do with the exclusivity TFC have in Canada for the next couple of years. Read things carefully.

On another note, what CrazyKeeper is trying to explain to you and what you continuously fail to grasp is that the CSA have nothing to do with the exclusivity of TFC in Canada until 2010. The CSA is the governing body of soccer in Canada, it has no jurisdiction whatsoever over what MLS decides to do and where they decide to place franchises. You must understand the difference between the governing body and the league. It's the same distinction between say the EPL and the English FA, those are 2 separate entities. The exclusivity TFC has, was awarded by MLS, again NOT by the CSA, to allow them to solidify the team and their fan base without other Canadian competition at least for the first 3 years. It was a move to ensure the stability of the franchise. Whether you agree with it or not, is another matter.

All the CSA really cared about where TFC is concerned, was the stadium, because without it, they would have lost the right to host the U-20 World Cup, which would have been a disaster.